Episode 4: Karen Finley
Transcription:
MIGUEL
Thank you so much for joining me.
Yeah, I'm just really excited to speak with you. I'm excited that this, that my decision to try to do this podcast has brought us into really direct contact. Because that's just really thrilling for me.
It's, it's really, and it's also been so great, because you know, I think, in general, with the topics we'll be discussing today, I had a kind of broad, you know, very superficial strokes understanding of what had really happened. And then to go really into the depths of it has been really fascinating, compelling. And also, it also now makes the issues seem like way bigger than anything I could even begin to hold. But hopefully, the way the questions I asked you will break them down easily enough. I wonder if we could just start with you just saying your name and telling us how you describe what you do.
KAREN FINLEY
Karen Finley, and I'm an artist, a provocateur, and I work in a variety of mediums. And I think that I usually go-- I participate in the mediums as a visual artist or as a social critic. So I also consider myself to be a critic, a social critic, and I use music, theater performance, visual art installation and engagement, too. So that's great. Oh, and also education. I am an educator. And that's an important part of me.
MIGUEL
You do it all. [laughs]
KAREN FINLEY
I'm not very good at sports.
MIGUEL
We're, we're joined there. I wonder if you would feel comfortable describing what your life looked like before the NEA stuff started to happen. If you would kind of describe how you were presenting your work and how you were getting your work supported? Or if you weren't getting your work supported how you were supporting yourself to make the work happen?
KAREN FINLEY
Well, that's an important question to see both thinking about an event and what happens before and after. And what's the transformation? So I'm going to answer that question in two different ways. The first way I'm going to answer it is in the way that is kind of more direct, and surface, and then the second answer is going to be more reflective. So I was trained in the arts, and I was very privileged, not only with being white, but in my education. I grew up in Chicago, and Evanston. And so I had access to contemporary art. And at a very early age, I was able to have support for that. And in that, even though I would be, you know, more of an outcast, a little bit different from traditional, artistic methods or education, that's, that's the direction I was going in. And also I was, so that's what I want to be thinking about what is support, I was also supported by my family, and my peers. And I want to mention that because we're talking about what is support. And so I had all of that support, that now when I look at and I talk to people, many people don't have that support. And in terms of looking at women in the art world at my earlier years. And also, since we're talking right now and what day this is I think that it should be important to say that I went to the same high school that Jacob Blake went to, and I believe his father and his grandfather went to school there or live as part of the community.
I was just thinking about that and I thought… since I should bring that up in terms of the day that we're talking about, what we're thinking about in the aftermath. And then I went to the, I didn't have the support financially to go to any art school as I wanted to. And I did eventually, I had some issues going to the Chicago Art (Institute), I had financial issues, different issues happening. And it took me three years to kind of save up to be able to go to school. And I finally started at an older age, right, I went to the San Francisco Art Institute. And that school is now closed.
MIGUEL
Yeah.
KAREN FINLEY
Okay, so for funding. And then I was making performance work, I was doing performance work. Also, while I was in high school, very young age that I was actually making, if you want to say, avant garde work or doing work like that, I was precocious in that way. And I... then was creating work getting kind of a smaller, there was a smaller community of artists, but I was within their community. So I want to say it was the community that was supporting me as well. And also in, whether it was in Chicago, and Evanston, you know, the artists, even if they're going to be older artists are going to be supporting, you know, supporting you. And also, that's what I love about performance, is because people come to see you. And even if it would be three or four people or five people, you're making it together, that's a supportive experience, too. And then I from... I worked in Chicago, I worked at did work, I then did some work in Europe, and I didn't really get any funding until I started. But I want to talk about what is funding, but on a traditional way, I received an NEA grant, when I was in Chicago, and for a solo performance that I had been performing a little bit like Franklin Furnace and Buffalo in Chicago. But when I received that grant, that was a big change for me, because I was able to take that money and use it to then move to New York City.
MIGUEL
What year was that?
KAREN FINLEY
That was ‘83. So I actually was... I moved in, I had performed at Franklin Furnace that fall. And in fact, there is a review of it, written Sally Banesm she was a dance critic. And then so yeah, so I was there and in ‘84. And then what happened is, I received one grant and I received a few more, you know, like, New York State gave some money. I was getting small nonprofit support, occasionally, but… I was working two or three jobs. I worked at nightclubs at night. And I would usually do about two or three jobs. So at that time, I had a waitress job, a cocktail waitress job. I also, I did other odd jobs too, but it still wouldn't sometimes be enough and I would be going to the food pantry too.
MIGUEL
What did you think your trajectory was gonna look like? What were you thinking about your career? Were you just thinking “I just want to make my work?” And how did you imagine that would look?
KAREN FINLEY
I never imagined that. For me. I never imagined that I would, could possibly have, you know, a career in the arts. But what I could imagine was making art. And that, to me, making art was a joyful experience making art, being around other people that made art, people looking at art, people thinking about art. And when I say art that's very wide, right? Because it can be literature, politics, but just reflective thinking, reflective response, a creative response to the world around you and your inner world and reflective, I guess if you say examined life. And that's… that's what I was going to be doing. And if I was going to have to be a waitress even though you know, I did have an education, that that's what I was committed to be doing. So it was a commitment to the art itself, not necessarily a commitment to the career, you know, in that way, and I did not really look at, “that's what I wanted to do.”
And I was interested, I think, also in performance of disrupting the economy, disrupting society. So I was interested in disrupting the market or disrupting the world in that way. Not being part of it.
MIGUEL
That was gonna say, what did that look like? What does that mean to you? What did that disruption mean?
KAREN FINLEY
That disruption would be on various levels, I'm going to go from personally and then outwards. So, for me, it would have been expressing spaces and my body and a place where I did not see that recognized in a dominant art or dominant arts... that I… my work was in resistance or in a rebellion. So the body was in rebellion against being an ingenue or being in rebellion towards a desire that was, you know, the male gaze. So that's what my work was. And so I looked at my--- my purpose is to be a guerrilla artist and to work from revenge. Use that as the fuel that, that emotion or that rebellion is the place that was moving me.
MIGUEL
At the same time that you're describing your work moving into this realm of disruption, I also have the clear sense that you were in a community, you know, in New York, certainly. And probably before you had moved to New York. Can you describe what that community looked like? And how you related to each other? And maybe how, if the conversation of money came up in that community?
KAREN FINLEY
That... I'd like to just backtrack in a moment, because part of my disruption was also about who has access, where can art be up and disrupting, who eyes the art? Who makes the art, where is that and at that time, which I-- it's not to the extent at all now, but-- a woman was not in the picture. It was, you know, you had Georgia, okay. And I actually envisioned like Joan Moreau or Jean Dubuffet as being women. Yeah. So that is not-- that is not happening now. Okay. So when I'm talking about these issues, it was that I was coming up this time of feminism. And my work was about that. But who is the community? The community can also be similar, just… you meet someone, I just met you just now. We're talking. I just had, oh, my goodness, I felt so connected with you just immediately. I couldn't wait just to be… and we are talking right now. I'm-- you can see, I can hardly stop talking. I love that feeling of being around people that are creating and engaging and looking and being. But this community… that's a very big word. And I think that this word of community, I'd like to just take a moment. And let's have some accountability here, which is that in my reflection of looking, now I'm going to be reflecting at looking at what is support is, that I feel that the support of when I came in now.
I'm talking about coming into New York, I'm going to just narrow the experience but coming into New York City, into the East Village, where there were probably 1000s of primarily white boomers coming to this area. I feel it was a form of colonialism, I feel that it was a form of… not even a form, but it is of cultural, more than cultural appropriation. It was about a cultural ratio. And that I participated naively because of many different conditions going on. But now, I’m looking back. I really feel that I would, that the participation was about whiteness, a certain form of whiteness. And I even.. I can even, that would be for a different conversation of talking about what these (art genres were) and how they participated in it. And that's not what we're going to be talking about here. But that was building on the economy, and the poverty and the tenements, even if I had family that hadn't lived there at some time. And, you know, it was using and exploiting the conditions of that neighborhood. And when you see what downtown art is, it is not, it wouldn't be written on that it owes so much to the cultures that were present, whether it's going to be Chinatown, whether it's going to be a vibrant Puerto Rican community of artists, and poets and writers and musicians. It isn't going to be speaking about black artists that have lived there and been living there. [Not] Even recognizing that in more rural Romare Bearden and his studio on Canal, that Baldwin wrote Price of the Ticket that was on Green Street, and Soho who is East Village.
And that is what I, you know, need to be accountable about. So this idea of the poor artist, or that all the artists were coming in... that it was done with that bravado. And within that, with that violence, I can, I feel that I participated in a certain-- in a certain ratio and violence.
MIGUEL
So the NEA thing begins to happen.
KAREN
Yes.
MIGUEL
How does that shift your trajectory? How does that… how does that shift things for you?
KAREN FINLEY
I was making work. And at this time, then, there was many galleries, many works going on. I was performing at Lincoln Center. I was-- I had music out. I was an emerging artist before this happened. So when people say, Oh, I became this more of a household name with the censorship issue.
What is that I was doing-- we have to understand what was the culture wars that were going on-- it's just after the Gulf War, full force, been happening. And that is why I was so committed to nonprofits or NEA or funding for the arts is because then people do not have to be dependent on only the wealthy, or inherited wealth has access. So what happens is that with this funding on a positive level, is that you were creating the spaces that weren't dependent on a form of capitalism, although stars came out of those places, you know, they became clear paths. For people that could be another discussion. But there would be feminist artists, and queer artists, their voices were being-- we're being allowed to have a space for. And I applied for a grant in 1990. And it was my solo performance, “We Keep our Victims Ready,” and in the performance, it was very, very present about what issues are today. It was about politics. It was also about AIDS, it was about government indifference. It was talking about immigration borders, talking about women's right to choose. So many of these issues were in the piece. And that was the piece-- and about race! That's what the, one of the central parts of what the performance was about. And that was the performance then that was denied granting.
MIGUEL
So this radically changes the trajectory. And one of the things that I have really, I get, I mean, I think I knew this already. But really, in doing this research, it is, I feel like in particular, you and your work was so misunderstood. And the… and the reductiveness of how it was talked about, of course, in the famous Washington Times editorial by Evans and Novak, in this Charlie Rose interview that I watched, you know... just this level of, of… I've just perceived it as such. It's so patronizing and sexist, and patriarchal. And there's such a focus on the audacity, that you should have to do the things that you're doing to your own body. But then there is absolutely no conversation about the text of the work, the issues of the work, the structure of how you present what you do… this I find fascinating, performative...I watched, “We Keep our Victims Ready”. And this, to me, this fascinating thing between how you move between, like, kind of DIRECT address and then incantatory speech, you know, none of that-- none of that is addressed in all of that. And I just wonder if you can speak to how, what that was like for you, or what that felt like for you, that misunderstanding?
KAREN FINLEY
It… well, it was, it was painful and glorious at the same time. I mean, it was very painful to be having your work and to be where I did feel that I had been very supported, and trained as if I was a trained artist, educated and so that I felt my profession had been shamed. And that was one of the reasons why I wanted to participate in the lawsuit as well, because it was a way to describe artists, and that was intentional by the government, because the artists became the scapegoat. The artists became the space to put all of this venom and the culture wars. And those culture wars, I think that we continue to see this day with Trump, and even the way with, in sexuality. So it hasn't, it hasn't changed. I mean, even so that is... that… that is the, you know, the pain of being denied, to have my work stopped. So that's what was difficult for me on a personal issue, level that you've been working in, you can see… and that then, when I had so many places stop completely. So I haven't really, I mean, I've been supported in different ways, and there are places, but I have never really been receiving funding in that same way or within that support. There would have been different ways that I could have capitalized on it. But I think that I, what I realized is that I as a straight woman, white woman, is that I was given an opportunity to even be looked at that what I was saying was worth censoring.
And there was a commodification involved in utilizing me and my work for a certain purpose and once I understood that, I had to then find my own joy. And I had to realize that you have to think about these… creating work as a part of a staircase, or political work that you make one step on a staircase. And that's why I teach other artists that are continuing and making work, that someone is getting funded, someone is having their art work happening.
MIGUEL
But what was the gloriousness?
KAREN FINLEY
The gloriousness is that there was a lot of support for me. There is all the support that I was even able to be, the people that I met in that what goes beyond one's own life, for one's own career, it goes beyond this idea of that, and what is of creating work, and bringing in joy. AND that's what I had to return to, the joy of making art And where that essence is, on a spiritual level, that's not necessarily dependent on the government. It's not dependent on anyone, but it's really just the space within one's own being. And I had to come back to that, or to understand that because I mean, now this is probably maybe getting deeper than what your conversation is people looking at, politically, but I don't need the government to be making my work or who I am, you know. They're not going to be owning me or doing that. And I say that in terms of my own joy in my being.
That's what I had to-- I had to go to, instead of buying in on this idea of certain institutions, instead of because I work in an institution now, and I'm working with institutions all the time, but. I had to get off of my high horse about certain things when I was disappointed, for example, when the Whitney canceled my solo show after 10 days, you know, losing the Supreme Court case. And, and not to be taking-- there are many, many artists and in many careers in different situations, where they're not even in these opportunities, this happens. And I had to be looking at it in a different… different, more spiritual level.
MIGUEL
What you're saying… I didn't anticipate asking you this. But so I'm forming the question in the moment. There's a lot in what you just said. I mean, when we spoke earlier, you did say this incredible thing that people in charge are not in charge of the joy, which I found really meaningful to hear. I wonder, though, from a sort of structural perspective, you know, there's such a phenomenon in the United States of individualism. And, you know, kind of, you know, “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” kind of ethos that is sort of like hammered into us, those of us who are born and raised in the place that we call the United States. And I, I feel like this tension, not even between public and private, but between public and individual, when you don't receive support, or when you're not able to think of yourself as eligible for support from the state or the government body, and you revert or you rely on yourself or you realize, okay, I don't need them to do what I do, which is, of course, great. But by the same token, I feel like it reinforces something, or were forced, we're sort of tricked into reinforcing this sense of individualism. And this sense of kind of, like, you know, Judy Garland, Mickey Rooney, “Let's, let's do it in a barn!! And, you know, like, nowadays, you see that with crowdfunding, like, oh, we'll just crowdfund or, you know, and there's something very sad to me in this realization that like, why can I not participate as a citizen? Not that getting money from the government is my only form of participating a citizen. Or why am I not seen as a citizen? Which for me comes up again and again in the whole, specifically your court case, but just this whole NEA drama and the 90s in general, like... why aren't queer people, people close to queer people, women, you know, emboldened women feminists being recognized by the state when we're living here?
KAREN FINLEY
Well, it has happened, though, but it was slower. I think that sometimes you win by losing because we lost that case, but then you can see what started opening within society. It's a process.It’s-- I do feel that there has been progress. But I feel that these notions of the idea of progress is based on capitalism too and production, productivity. But what I was speaking about was not so much about the space of support. It was horrible when you remove, and I think that has damaged American culture and society, you know, irreparably, with what happened,
MIGUEL
Specifically-- specifically, the removal of individual fellowships or…?
KAREN FINLEY
Fellowships, and then what happens is that companies used the NEA grant system public funding as a way to understand who could be funded. It was a beginning, because private companies aren't in the business of being able to be always evaluating who could be making art, what corporation or what nonprofits, so it was a way of having a baseline, even if they could be accredited. So it really became like an accreditation. I have some issues in looking at who is getting all these kinds of things and that could be another conversation. But I think that it was... in the beginning, to be offering these, these spaces and to have people to be making art, because what happens is, then the people that don't have the same access to art-- andI think it had a big impact on audiences-- and I think that you can look at smaller nonprofits, not necessarily Broadway, where it's had an impact from the reduction in terms of NEA, in terms of audience development, there's definitely been research on that. So the idea of having a society and a community and connecting and all the little businesses then working and profiting, and I think that New York State gives much more to the arts than other states. And you know, it has a lot to do with the economy, there is a productivity... or it makes a healthy society, makes a healthy society having all those ways. And artists never really received that much money. You were talking about a small amount of money. I mean, with some of these kinds of situations we have here. And I think that in America, as I remember that when the NEA was, the question was that I think it was 67 cents per person that it was for the arts or something.
MIGUEL
Yeah, I mean, I think exactly in what you're saying, and I've heard this before, which is, particularly these individual fellowships, were a kind of benchmark standard that you know, in a field where it's so hard to even understand what that could mean, that this was some way of legitimizing a person to have a certain kind of a profile, and that the removal of that made it made it harder.
KAREN FINLEY
Yes. So I had a museum that returned my work from a collection. So it had an impact in terms of the art market in that way
MIGUEL
That was specifically after the ‘98 ruling.
KAREN FINLEY
So I had specific situations like that, that I could see that were changed in terms of being… there's a certain way how things move in terms of, you know, art market or even in all of the arts where there's certain institutions that receives funding, and if that is going to be threatened, and then you're not being able to be part of that system, it's very, very difficult.
MIGUEL
Because you were seen as a liability.
KAREN FINLEY
I wasn't seen as a liability, I was a liability.
MIGUEL
So aside, I mean, what about the other… What do you perceive what other fallouts there were, like the Whitney, this gallery returning your work? What other kinds of fallout do you think that you experienced?
KAREN FINLEY
Well, the other fallout, then, was personal protection. If you have threats on your life-- well you're having threats, or you're going place and that is happening, institutions or spaces only have a certain amount of ability to support or castle. It's great, like in the moment to be part of that scene and to be doing it but you know, when it comes out to it, there-- there were a lot of spaces that did support me, I have to say. There were-- I had-- you know, what supported me I say is that nightclubs, I had to work in nightclubs, I did teaching institutions, I did still create artwork, television, I had to do different types of way of thinking. And I think what is so interesting about what I went through is why does every person have to be-- have so many-- wear so many hats? You know, and why do people have to be so tested in that way. And there are many artists that, you know, emotionally go through it so the pain for it was the fact that I feel that I lost about 10 years of my life having devoted to it. And I was offered that after I lost the show at the Whitney, which is another conversation that if I wanted to do I have another lawsuit. And at that point, I did it. I couldn't go and have another 10 years, you know, I mean it was eight years for...
MIGUEL
The whole thing.
KAREN FINLEY
Yeah, there's a year leading up to it just like feeling the tension in the world going on. And then there's a year after, so I feel like it was you know, a decade out of my life. And I just didn't feel that I was the best person to go into it, to do something like that. I probably should have but I just didn't have-- things that were going on in my life at that time. I just couldn't… I couldn't do it.
MIGUEL
Did you feel a sense of camaraderie with the other three artists that you were named on the suit?? with? Or did you feel more isolated because it was your name on the case as it were?
KAREN FINLEY
Oh, no, we were pretty much in constant contact. I mean I think that we all had an understanding of that. I mean, I think we all have-- everyone had their unique ways that they had to be dealing with it and there are other artists you know, too. And you know, I think that the other artists found their work and they make such incredible work. I mean, John Fleck, his last performance I saw was incredible. You know Holly Hughes, they’re incredible artists.
MIGUEL
How did your work change as a result of all this?
KAREN FINLEY
Well, I started doing options, just even financially, so afterwards I did Playboy, you know, I did the Bill Maher show. I had to go into… but I couldn't completely, if you want to say, sell out into Hollywood. I couldn't do it. I mean, I had some opportunities there and I really... I think the situation is that I feel more that I'm an artist rather than an entertainer. More of an, you know, an introvert but… in also certain situations. How my work changed... I can, I did installation work I did. But I had the support I think of within my job at NYU. And that was-- that has been a wonderful experience because it was wonderful that I could be on a faculty or somewhere and everything I could say at that institution, where I could say something and I never had to defend my, my career, my research. And that was so wonderful for me to be in an environment like that, that I would be accepted. My research, the art that I did…
MIGUEL
When did that start? The NYU thing.
KAREN FINLEY
After my NEA situation, I went, I was teaching at CalArts and went to California. I mean, I had nothing afterwards, nothing. I had a daughter, my mother had cancer. Here, I had nothing. And I, I had to get, I had… that's why I did Playboy, I got, and... I had to rethink, I had to re-evaluate what I was doing. And I did some teaching, I did some books and things like that, you know, I was still performing, going places, going to Europe, going to Australia. That's why I'm not as much as-- you can’t travel now. But I was performing and traveling everywhere nightclubs doing this.
MIGUEL
But do you think your actual work, like the actual content of your work, shifted? Or did you become scared of what you were saying in the work?
KAREN FINLEY
No, I don't think so with that. But I think what happened is people had an expectation that they're really like, looking at some way that you made art that you never even made art that way, that they're imagining it, because it's all based on this sort of titillation. And all… or this certain kind of a sexuality that I hadn't even been doing work about that. And so what happened is that there is always going to be a disappointment, because that... I... you know, I wouldn't necessarily be…. you know, I guess it was… I had some galleries so that was wonderful to me there. There was a lot of support too because I always continue to make art, I do work within clubs, nightclubs, spin cycle. I did, I did a show. I did, I think after that NEA, I did “Shut Up and Love Me”, which was the honey performance. And so I did that. But it was hard, because even for example, you would think someplace like PS 122 would be then giving, you know, or spaces, I remember, after all this, the only time I could get to perform was at like 11 o'clock at night. You know, I mean, I wasn’t. I mean, I had to, I had to look to get places, I wasn't being always called up. Even though I've been doing work that was considered to be really critical work, that had really changed… or been innovative. I was like... I was, you know, starting over again. So the positive of it is that I think that my work stayed fresh because I always wasn't going to be coming like Frank Stella, here's the same work I was doing. I did more installation. You know, I did writing, I did lots of different genres.
MIGUEL
If it's okay, I want to like, I want to read from the court. The Supreme Court's judgment. There's two pieces of text that really jumped out to me in reading it. One is from Antonin Scalia, Scalia's concurrence, and one is from David Souter. You know, dissenting thing. So from Scalia's concurrence, he says, “Those who wish to create indecent and disrespectful art are as unconstrained now as they were before the enactment of the statute. Avant garde artistes, such as respondents, remain entirely free to eppater les bourgeois. They are merely deprived of the additional satisfaction of having the bourgeoisie taxed to pay for it. It is preposterous to equate the denial of taxpayer subsidy with measures aimed at the suppression of dangerous ideas,” which I'm guessing is language from the, from the... from your lawyers. And then Souter in his thing, he says, “One need do nothing more than read the text of the statute to conclude that Congress's purpose in imposing the decency and respect criteria was to prevent the funding of art that conveys an offensive message. The decency and respect provision on its face is quintessentially viewpoint based, and quotations from the Congressional Record, merely confirm the obvious legislative purpose.” So I just was just so astounded to read both of those things. I know, it's… I wonder if you have a kind of reaction, hearing that now.
KAREN FINLEY
You can't escape public funding. Every-- if you're looking for it, you're going to find it. Right now, there's, there's public funding, just within this moment, wherever we are, you know. And that, I think that you could probably even see that in terms of the artist, I think, Ron Athey that were -- he was performing, I think, in Minneapolis, because he was another artist that really had a lot of difficulties, maybe not necessarily with a particular grant, like we did, a lawsuit. But similar time frame and, and the content of our work. So that's how-- you can't I mean, you have to deal with the humor of it too, because you can't, you're going to find public funding, whether it's in the water, whether it's in the mail, like we're seeing in the mail, whether it's you know, the air we breathe, whether it's the street, whether it's the door knob, I mean, you just can't, the park, anywhere. I mean, there's some public funding in this moment, here, wherever, is going on. And so it's ludicrous, what is being prescribed here are the ideas of “decency” and “indecent.” And I think that, what I said then is, is that the work that I was doing is being a mirror to society, you know, my work was say, we are deciding if I wanted to be within-- having my work being that it was sex, sexual content, you know, sexual, I would be working in, in that genre, and I'd be making a lot more money, you know? And so it's sort of, like, ludicrous. I mean, after that, trying to make sense of it is difficult, you know, and the government has unending resources for the, for the lawyers, for the money and being able to do it. And what I did learn, too, is that, you know, the Democrats and the Republicans were, you know, I think, were also part of the deal, you know, for, for this censorship.
And people don't like it, they think, “Oh, it's just the Republicans.” Well, no, that isn't true at all. There were many, many... the Clintons, we did win in the ninth circuit. And this did not have-- when we won, it could have, it could have stayed that way. But it was decided to go to the Supreme Court. And so it was, I feel that it was actually like a deal, you know, and who is on their court never read in making that decision. I think at that time, it was a deal that was to be made. And that's what's happened. It's, you know, it’s a deal. And that way, I think it's kind of-- I would say that it's humorous, but it is very sobering to be thinking that the arts can have such an impact on political life or so. We can see that again, that happened during the McCarthy era. We can see it many times happening, you know, and you can see that happening now.
MIGUEL
Yeah, John Frohnmayer in his book. He says, I don't think-- I don't believe that we can say why symbols affect us the way they do. In Finley’s case, it was not that the imagery failed to work, but that it worked too well. This idea that I think part of what the outrage was about was because of the clarity of the work. Actually. That's the sense I get.
KAREN FINLEY
That... this is an underhanded compliment. Yeah. You say, I mean to be saying that the work was too clear? Well, I think what he's saying there is that what I'm speaking about is that the work wasn’t abstracted in some ways. And so you couldn't really see what was-- was happening, but that's what the artwork was supposed to be about at that time, was to be speaking, to be speaking out. So in that way. I’d probably like to have a conversation with him about that.
I think it's another way of saying that if I had been quiet, and I was just thinking those things, rather than saying them, that that would be fine.
MIGUEL
Yeah, I mean, time and again, when I read-- when I read his book, and…
KAREN FINLEY
I should read it.
MIGUEL
It's fascinating. I don't know, if you mean, it's. I'm also reading Jane Alexander's book, that she wrote about her experience as a chairwoman of the NEA. But um, I--
KAREN FINLEY
You should read the ACLU, has a book, too, I think it was Nadine Stossen…
MIGUEL
The thing that comes up for me again, and again, is just kind of how incredibly straight and incredibly white, the governmental interactions are. And, you know, there's never… the word “radical'' is only ever applied to describe artists, it's never used to describe the evangelical right, you know, even though he's very clear that he hated the evangelical right, that he was very frustrated with them. But, but even that is not seen as an, it's not sort of positioned in the same, to the same level of extremism. And that I feel like there's a, you know, for me, there's again, it goes back for me to this thing of like, artists citizens question of when we even have these conversations, who's in the room? You know, it makes-- it begs the question of like, were there queer people in the room, when these conversations were happening at the governmental level, and...
KAREN FINLEY
I have the video of his deposition. We videotaped it.
MIGUEL
Wow.
KAREN FINLEY
I think I have my-- or I don't know if I videotaped, but I have my deposition on video. He must not have his own. I don't think I could do that. I didn't. But you can get the transcript of his deposition.
MIGUEL
From which, from what year did he do the deposition? They all had to have depositions for the court case. So I had to do a deposition who... I think, I have to go and find that but I have it.
MIGUEL
What do you think? How do you think artists should support their work? What do you think? What do you think?
KAREN FINLEY
I don't think they should be attacked. I don't think that they should have to have death threats. I don't think that they should be having mobs, they're going to be creating new work.
And I mean, it's hard enough to be… that you… so that, that's... that was difficult, you know, and it did affect me and affected me in terms of my... my fear of I say, to where I could go, look, I became much more... I became more isolated. I didn't always want to be going out or speaking about the work. It affected me emotionally and psychically.
MIGUEL
Do you feel like it's worth it?
KAREN FINLEY
You didn't know if I was. I didn't know when I was going to be attacked. There were some times that I was.
MIGUEL
Do you feel like the emerge--I get the sense that there was also an emergence post the NEA thing of more private support or foundation support or... there was a kind of desire on the level of philanthropy to sort of fill in the gaps of what was happening governmentally. Do you think-- did you perceive that as well? Or, do you think that that's a viable means for people to go in that direction for support?
KAREN FINLEY
Well, some places like Creative Capital started and I remember when I applied to them, I got a letter saying “Yeah, this really wonderful, but actually, you're the-- we hope you understand, but we can’t support you.” So yes, there were a lot of foundations that I could name, other ones that where foundations then say we love what you're doing. But on the side, you can understand we can’t support you. So you'd have that. But yes, I think a lot of foundations have done that. I think there is and-- Let's bring it to where we are now, which is that what happened is that institutions or whatever one wants to be thinking about museums or places. You know, I love museums and art spaces and theaters everywhere, but they couldn't be as dependent on public support and had to go to private support. And now, that's why what we're seeing is happening at museums, and I mean, I think that these horrific people are, you know, money is their playing money. That's another conversation. What do we know, in receiving money from the United States government? Is that clean money? I mean, no money, that's another-- but for this, talking about with this is I think that it's been very powerful, what's been happening, where museums and their boards are being accountable for profiting from bodies in labor, and war, and incarceration and prison system, and then having the art market and the profitability that is happening. And, and then the objectification, of protest or objectification, of rebellion, and labor and the bodies that are being oppressed, and the who is profiting and who is gazing and collecting and the collectability. And I feel that there is much more accountability or uproar going on about that-- there was than 20 years ago, 30 years ago.I mean, of course, I think that the Guerrilla Girls or certain museums going on, some of these practices were happening, but it's much more of the general population is concerned. And I think that that's a good thing. And I think that's, I think that's fantastic.
MIGUEL
You work with students? Do you have a sense of what they're thinking about in terms of this idea of getting support for their work, or money and art or performance? What do you think they think?
KAREN FINLEY
I think that they're very sophisticated. I think that the students are just fantastic. I learn from them, I think that they really have an understanding of all the different levels, whether there's going to be crowdsourcing, about access, and I have to...I learned a lot from them about who gets to see the work. What's the ownership privacy? Foundations? I think it's fantastic. I think there's so much more ecumenical understanding about who has a part in it, in profit, and… or the social understanding of sharing in cultural equity. And I think that I need to, I think that I was trained to be part... I had a division about within my work that would have been part of a political disruption and intervention. But at the same time, I still and I think that this can be a problem for many artists, is that you're doing this work that is about this activism, but yet you are participating in a system that is profiting off of, you know, labor and us-- bodies, experiences that aren't necessarily yours, but yet you find these, you know, these events, and that, I think that that is changing. I think that that is-- that's changing within institutions. And I have to be changing a lot of my views because of sharing about what is with copyright. That's something that I'm interested in, of looking at support. So this idea that I have had. So that's something that I am interested in, in reawakening myself of who creates the artists, what is the support? What goes into it, what is the individual, you know, and the individual profit. So, I think that I have I think that I have-- that as a society, having more of a social understanding of knowledge for the public good.
MIGUEL
You know, I'm gonna speak with John Frohnmayer later today, which is sort of surreal. Do you have anything that you want me to ask him? Or anything that you would recommend asking him?
KAREN FINLEY
Oh, well, probably just listen to him. I don't have any questions. But I would listen to him and what his experiences.
I think he's just a person that was put into the situation that it was, you know, difficult. I don't know all the experiences that he had to go through to be making his decisions and what decisions were being made for him?
MIGUEL
Yeah. Is there anything else you want to say?
KAREN FINLEY
No, I think-- I think I'm good?
MIGUEL
I’m so grateful to you, this is so incredible. So great. I really appreciate how you answered.
KAREN FINLEY
Well, I think I do have now... thinking you know what I don't want to leave it on just the the low note, I think that… just in terms of a reflection is... I really, really appreciate all these questions that you gave me and I am going to be reflecting on them for a long time. And I really like this opportunity to be able to speak with you about it. Because it's-- and I also like to just say to, you know, listeners here is that-- it’s an emotional issue, and I don't always get the opportunity to speak about it. And so it was really, really wonderful to be listened to, to have that opportunity to share this time. And I also am very grateful about you and your work… that you, in the work that you do and your contributions, and you hear in teaching and working. And I love meeting artists and knowing all the work that you are doing with the politics, the body, expression, and with funding and... it, it helps a conversation means so much, a conversation. That's where it starts. So I want to thank you for listening to me because I haven't always trusted everyone that I felt that I could speak to, and that was a beautiful gift for me that you listen to me. And I needed to be listened, you know, to be listened to, and that I didn't feel that I had to validate or justify myself. That's very, very painful for the artist.
MIGUEL
I completely agree. I feel... I want to thank you, thank you for your work. You changed my life, you also-- your work makes space for my work. I hope that that is reciprocated. And I'm excited to keep talking to you. And I'm excited to hug you in person when I'm able to. [Laughs]
KAREN FINLEY
You know, it's so... why that makes me feel so… you're talking about joyousness. But if it was-- in that experience that I had, and through that fight or that struggle, in that struggle, I-- the relationships and the support that I found from it, and the truth and going through all this, and when I meet my students. I don't think that I would be meeting my students today if I-- that's not to say oh-- but I feel more reflective and committed to, than ever, of public funding for education and public funding for the arts. And we have this exchange here and for me to be knowing that with-- that my work has had an influence or provided a space for you, I feel that really makes me feel good. Because it feels like going and doing that for those, you know, those eight years of doing it was to be able to be having a space for a voice. And so that happened. And it does take a commitment or a space within it. And we as artists are then connected to other artists that we aren't, it's in my piece of black sheep, that we're connected people that we're not not necessarily related to, and I feel a connection with you.
MIGUEL
I feel it too. [Laughs]
KAREN FINLEY
Let's make something together. Let's go…
MIGUEL
Let’s do it. Alright, well, I hope you have a great day. And thank you and I hope everything works out with getting all your stuff together.
KAREN FINLEY
I'm going to make some art.
MIGUEL
Go for it. Never stop. Bye!
KAREN FINLEY
Bye!