IMAGE DESCRIPTION: First slide: Announcement of Episode 6 for Are You For Sale? Background is an image of artist Antonio Ramos, his hair is teased out, big and fluffy. He is wearing sunglasses and there is a pink cartoon style phone in the background on a mantle. The image has a rainbow filter applied so Antonio appears almost psychedelic. Left top corner of the image is the podcast logo which reads “ARE YOU FOR SALE?” in white text. Logo features a small white microphone with a dollar sign on it. The logo is framed by two small white lined boxes. In the middle of the image is a banner of white text that reads “Episode 6: Beg, Borrow, Steal (Back) - How Dance Artists in the U.S. fund their work?” and an additional banner near the bottom reads “Featuring u.s based artists (and YOU)”. Bottom left corner features icons for Spotify and Instagram and areyouforsalepodcast.com is written in black in the bottom right corner.
Episode 6: Beg, Borrow, Steal (Back) - How Dance Artists in the U.S. fund their work
In this episode Miguel interviews colleagues in various locations throughout what is currently called the United States. Together they examine operating inside of a system, scarcity and success. Featuring conversations with Cynthia Oliver, Rosie Herrera, Antonio Ramos and Amara Tabor-Smith.
Link to extras with Cynthia, Rosie, Antonio, and Amara here.
Episode 6 Transcription
[Music Strumming]
Voice 1 (Edgar Villanueva)
Philanthropy as a sector exists because of capitalism and the accumulation of wealth in the first place…
Voice 2 (Stephanie Acosta)
There is no such thing as making wealth that isn’t part of a community…
Voice 3 (Karen Finley)
Why I was so committed to non-profits or NEA or funding for the arts is because then people do not have to be dependent on only the wealthy...
Voice 4 (Sara Juli)
It’s still at the end of the day, you fighting for your work, which... we fight for our work in all sorts of other ways
MIGUEL
[Sung with playful music] Art and money and dance and money and what is the right thing to do with that? When the system's so fucked up, [gets louder and harmonizes] are you for sale?
SHANNON STEWART
Hi, my name is Shannon Stewart. I live in New Orleans, otherwise known as Bill Bonta. After many years of living in place that only had small grants and also a very high cost of living, I ended up needing to relocate to a place that I could afford. But there's no support for dancemakers here. So it's complicated. I get invited to make and share things often. And it frequently entails a really small commission. For example, I'm currently working on an evening length premiere for a actual presenter, and it is for $1,000 to be spent over three years. That money is supposed to be leveraged to get all the other funding that's out there. And although I applied to all the things I haven't ever landed a big one. I have also crowdsourced, I've held fundraising events. I have stupidly used my student loans to pay collaborators and lately, I've just been making very minimal work that I can pay for by living cheaply, saving a little bit of money and then making what I can. The side hustles have included: being a professional dance party starter at events, polishing wood in a giant mansion for a year, dancing in music videos, being an adjunct professor, cleaning houses and coffee shops, teaching dance to folks with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, working part of the year in Europe and squirreling away actual artist and teaching fees, using the aforementioned student loan money to get a certification that has paid my bills hand over fist more than my advanced degree. And with the most conflict, I have been an arts administrator, where I can be given a stable ongoing salary, benefits and opportunities for professional growth-- failure sometimes-- and collaboration, extensively in service to artists that get to enjoy none of these benefits themselves. Abolish the foundation, tax shelter, paternalistic, philanthropic, grantmaker bullshit, give folks a basic income, health care, daycare, elder care and education and put a maximum income limit in place and long live The Nap Ministry. Thanks for this opportunity to get that off my chest.
MIGUEL
You hear it right? The frustration, the exhaustion, the anger, the range of jobs that have been part of the financial picture, but also the tenacity, the desire to continue a drive that's born of both commitment to the work and economic precarity and the desire to see a different world put into place. It's what dance artists do. Or maybe it's better to say, it's what dance artists are forced to do. Nobody asked us if these were the conditions we wanted. [Hello by Adele clip plays "Hello, it's me."] Miguel Gutierrez and this is Are You For Sale, a podcast where we examine the ethical entanglement between money and dance making. Thank you for tuning in. And remember, I'm not an expert. I'm just the person foolish enough to speak out. We're at episode six. Wow. Today's episode is called: Beg, Borrow, Steal (Back) - How Dance Artists in the U.S. fund their work. We'll be hearing from a variety of dance artists from around the area currently referred to as the United States. Some folks I interviewed and some folks responded to our call for messages via email or voicemail number, which is what you heard the beginning just now. Before we go further, though, I want to acknowledge how talking about money brings up a lot of stuff for folks. It can bring up feelings of vulnerability, shame, anger, desperation, and sometimes when you're able to access funds for your work, feelings of gratitude, excitement, or just simply relief. I received a bunch of messages from artists who, after hearing last week's episode and some of the numbers that artists elsewhere get access to were just flabbergasted at the contrast with how little we have to work with here. I don't really have any easy responses for that confusion and frustration other than to say, I hear you. And I feel you. It's part of why I'm doing this podcast. I hope that today's episode helps you feel connected to others, and that it provides some reassurance that you're not alone in this. But I also hope that it's a wake up call for the field because we have to do better by our artists. In the last episode we heard a lot about government funding. Today, you'll notice the opposite. The artists will rarely reference government funding for their work because that's not what they're receiving. Now, that's partly a consequence of who I spoke to. Remember this is not a comprehensive study of arts funding, but I still think that it offers a picture of the landscape dance artists working here are collectively navigating.
ANTONIO RAMOS
Oh my god, it's so fucking hard. So fucking hard. I mean that's like one of the hardest things that I have done because...
MIGUEL
That's Antonio Ramos.
ANTONIO RAMOS
You want my whole name, Antonio Ramos Trinidad
MIGUEL
Antonio is a queer Puerto Rican artist and massage therapist living in Lenapehoking in an area currently referred to as Brooklyn. He is one of the most amazing generous and funny people I've ever met. Here he's talking about what it was like to do a Kickstarter.
ROSIE HERRERA
Man they're nerve racking, just thinking about that you just had that money to-- in order to make things happen-- one of them I made it, but I made it because I have to ask money for a friend to pay me up front and then... but then I have to pay him everything back. So I have to work my ass off to like you know, make $5,000 and give it to this person so it's really nerve racking.
MIGUEL
And it was happening while you were making the piece?
ROSIE HERRERA
It was happening while I was making the piece so...
MIGUEL
Yeah, so right off the bat we're really experiencing the weather of the scene today. The variety of people the variety of experiences, you may end up getting a sense of ricochet. If at any point you feel confused, wonder what the through line is or where's the answer key to this episode, great because this episode is the micro of the macro. Like the systems we navigate in order to try and make work this episode is not neat, and there isn't no clear trajectory. (Clip of "Hello" by Lionel Richie plays) Lionel?
[Miguel's voice, reading off another entry with a phone audio filter] Hi this is Kate Watson Wallace, here are the ways I've supported my work over the years: stripping/sex work, best funding source yet today by the way-- engaging in barter and feminist care centered economies ,living in a place that's cheaper with more resources (Philly,) waitressing/barista work, grants, Indiegogo/Kickstarter, individual donors, partner with a larger income who can help split costs like rent, bills and pay for random things (going out to eat etc.) commercial work that subsidizes experimental work, COVID emergency grants right now, unemployment right now, sublet or Airbnb income (this one is huge and had allowed me time and space to actually make art) currently looking into OnlyFans or a subscription service. [Ending beep] All right, who else are we talking to?
ROSIE HERRERA
My name is Rosie Herrera.
MIGUEL
Rosie is...
ROSIE HERRERA
Cuban-American...
MIGUEL
And lives on Seminole, Tequesta and Taino land in South Florida, currently known as...
ROSIE HERRERA
Miami Beach, which is amazing.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
Amara Tabor-Smith
MIGUEL
Amara is a black queer artist situated on
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
Unseated Utian Ohlone territory, aka Oakland, California.
MIGUEL
She's also an artist in residence at Stanford University. And then the one and only...
CYNTHIA OLIVER
Cynthia Oliver.
MIGUEL
A black Caribbean artist who lived in New York in the 80s and 90s. But who now lives in Kickapoo, Miami, Ojibwe, Chickasha, and Peoria land currently referred to as Urbana Champaign, where she is a professor at the University of Illinois. As we dove into talking about money, I joked to Cynthia that I needed to make a separate podcast where we only talk about art. And she responded,
CYNTHIA OLIVER
Well, it's interesting that you would say that because, you know, we often divorce the two, and they're not divorced. And, you know, it becomes the hard thing to talk about. But it is, it is integral to how we, it's how we live. So it-- it is also an integral part of how we make, and I think to not talk about it is doing ourselves a disservice.
MIGUEL
I fully agree. I asked everyone what their general feelings are, when thinking about the process of raising funds for their work. We'll hear from Amara and then Antonio,
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
It's exhausting. I mean, it's challenging. It brings up a lot of emotions, it brings up scarcity, it brings up unworthiness, and you know who's worthy, who's not worthy that... it comes down to that there isn't equity in the arts, there isn't value for the arts in this culture. So it then pits us against each other, even if that's not our nature, we spend a lot of time having to be a circle that's trying to fit inside of a square, and then say, this is why we need to be in this square. So it brings up a lot of emotions. I'm also grateful for when I've gotten funding, no doubt, but I think that the the culture of funding inside of our society is not healthy.
ROSIE HERRERA
I mean we are in such an uncertain place right now, as a dancer artist period, where I feel like they were one of the least supported professions in America. And even more when you do experimental work, I feel like it's very conservative place. And the people who are the most supportive in the same place, in the same category, are like ballet companies or companies that are like... even in the modern world, they have like the super contemporary ones who just follow the rules. And I feel like in experimental land you're trying to break the rules constantly.
MIGUEL
Yeah. So there's our first conundrum, right? How do you as a rule breaker, engage with a funding system that requires you to follow the rules. Rosie, who's been showing her work for over 13 years, shared that she had held her first fundraiser only just last year, I asked her how it went.
ROSIE HERRERA
I don't know if it's like the first generation like immigrant thing, but I have a really hard time asking for help. And I'm not very articulate in my personal life, or my professional life in expressing when I need help. So it was a challenge for me, a challenge that I met with, well, how I always meet things that are uncomfortable for me with a lot of humor, to sort of kind of soften the ask.
MIGUEL
Her dad fled Cuba, her mom grew up in the South Bronx, and the challenging circumstances they had shaped her worldview.
ROSIE HERRERA
The values that they imparted on me of like self sufficiency, and actually the emotional, oppressive nature of being tough in general, it's something that... yeah, I've been unpacking for a really long time. But, you know, those are the values that really worked and was helpful for them to survive their own lives. And so I was taught that, and it has been very useful for me. And then in other ways, I'm learning how that's a culture to the culture of toughness, and not asking for help.
MIGUEL
When I asked Cynthia what her general feelings were about raising funds for her work, she provided a historical context.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
It's horrifying, and a pain in the ass. But it's a reality, because of my experience as a young artists working for a variety of people who, who succumb to not talking about it, or would talk about it sort of painfully at the end of something or make certain kinds of promises about it. But they couldn't really keep... it was an embarrassing moment, you know, it was uncomfortable. It was like, "Well, I don't have any money," or "I can pay you transportation", or "I can pay you for the performance, but I can't pay you for the rehearsal," "I can pay you, you know, one or the other" or "I can maybe give you $50 a week," whatever it was that folks could work out. It was sort of the last thing that was kind of really addressed. What I would prefer, of course, were those folks who just said, what was difficult were the ones who didn't say it. And then you had to ask,
MIGUEL
And how were the dancers talking about it?
CYNTHIA OLIVER
In some situations, it was, you know, so if it were answered at the end of the information session, the invitation moment, then you know, people would go away, and in the dressing room would be like, "I'm sorry, I can't do this," or, you know, "I'll do this and make it work with with this other gig that I'm working," or there were also those situations where folks would offer to talk to each one of us individually about money. And that was really uncomfortable, because that made it seem as though it was something that was secret. And we weren't supposed to then talk to each other about it, which of course people did. And you know, so then, you know, there was a bit of a kind of grousing about like, "Why were we talking about it separately, was somebody trying to get something over on us?" That labor remuneration exchange was a fraught one. And it was just hard to determine like what is what is a reasonable rate, you know, are we being greedy by asking for X amount of money just so that we don't have to do an additional gig so that we can afford to dance with someone.
MIGUEL
This then shaped how she approached the conversation about money when she started making her work.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
I was like, Okay, if I ever make work, I... one I will not make something with other people in it unless I can pay them. I will never be able to pay them what they're worth but I can always be honest about what I can afford to pay them and what I will try to pay them if I managed to access more.
MIGUEL
[Miguel's voice, reading off another entry with a phone audio filter] My name is Emily Mast, and I'm what my daughter calls a performancer. I'm based in LA and I'm a visual artist who has been making live performances since 2006. I tend to produce everything myself, which means that I conceive of an idea and juggle wearing the following hats, writer, director, casting agent, choreographer, costume designer, prop designer, prop maker, set designer, builder, drama tour translator, PR person, social media liaison, archivist, etc. I collaborate with musicians and lighting designers and often get help from volunteer interns who are more capable than myself. To fund these projects I apply for grants. Thankfully, I received many. Of course, I've also received many rejection letters. I also get commissions, mostly from European institutions. Unfortunately COVID interrupted my commission momentum considerably. And then I collaged together a complex quilt of day jobs. I'm a freelance interior designer, a freelance creative director, a freelance art advisor, a tutor and occasional adjunct teacher. And every once in a blue moon, I sell my work to an institution. I'm also a mom, but that kind of labor has no value in this country. Alas, I am not well rested. I work all the time, and I have no retirement plan. But somehow, perhaps stupidly, I have more faith in art than in capitalism. [Ending beep]
I wanted to know how our interviewees got going with their work like at the beginning.
ROSIE HERRERA
At the very beginning, it was like you know that whole artist barter system like if you do my piece, I'll choreographic your quince, and like we're gonna rehearse in my dad's house and I'll do... you know, like it was a trading systems. And Miami isn't really a sort of like, structures for like how to run a company except for Miami City Ballet. There's amazing people that have had companies, but there isn't really like a sort of structure to kind of click into. So it's kind of inventing things as I went along, but was very lucky at the beginning to receive some commissioning, funding from amazing organizations like that Miami Light Project, the Adrienne Arsht Center and the American Dance Festival.
MIGUEL
In case you didn't catch it, those first two organizations Rosie mentioned are the Miami Light Project and the Adrienne Arsht Center.
ROSIE HERRERA
And so that money went to paying the artists that were rehearsing, and then I paid myself with my own work as a cabaret and burlesque artist, right. So it was kind of separate. At that time, Miami is such an incredibly supportive community. I wasn't paying for rehearsal space at all. And so that money can stretch out a lot further when you don't have to pay for rehearsal space.
MIGUEL
And that way of working where any income that comes in, goes to support her company, but she paced herself through other work like cabaret or burlesque projects. That's been an ongoing theme and Rosie's career. And it's a familiar story for many of us. But now let's hear about how Cynthia got it going at the beginning of her choreographic career.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
My first couple of pieces were solos, so I didn't have to pay anybody. But when I started to work with other people, one of the first things I got was a space grant. Couldn't give me money, but they gave me space. And that was huge. And so then I could fundraise... Huffin Foundation, I remember was one of my first ones. And that was like $500. And I applied like crazy for everything that was available at a certain level. And THEN I don't know if you remember, but you and I had a conversation many, many years ago that I have never forgotten. And it always makes me laugh because I was encouraged by a fan and supporter who said, you know, you need to reach out to your contacts and send an ask letter. And I was horrified by the idea of asking anybody for money, but I did I you know, with their encouragement I did, I sent out an actual hardcopy letter in an envelope with a stamp and all that. And I was surprised at how much money came back, you know, from and it was you know, those days, it was what we now call crowdsourcing. But you know, somebody, how many people sent $10 or $25, or whatever. And I made a good chunk of money so that I could pay people a reasonable amount, but the... our conversation, my conversation with you was, I think you had sent out a similar thing. And I sent you like $25, and you wrote back and were like, "Girl, this is the same $25 is rolling around the dance community. Whenever anybody needs something we all said of this $25 route." And I hollered because you know, it's true.
MIGUEL
I'm pretty sure it's my turn now to donate those $25 back to you, Cynthia, but I want to take a moment and just ask you, did you catch how Cynthia said that at the beginning when she was making solos, she didn't have to pay anybody? Cynthia, you are somebody. I mean, I know she knows that. But I think it's a telling detail. And I know I've said the same thing when I'm making solo work. So if there's maybe one thru line we can tease out by now it's that the person making the work usually pays themselves last, if at all. And Tonio lays out a complex mix of how making his work has interacted with his health on multiple levels.
ROSIE HERRERA
For like 10 years or more. I felt like I was really self producing myself. I would get very small grants, but everything, when-- from my massage work, pretty much and... I took advantage of being supported by the government when I got really sick in 2004. I was HIV positive since 1986. And then in 2004, I got diagnosed with AIDS, so I had a fucking horrible time trying to rehab from that, but I've got sustainability from the governments. I got better within three to five years and then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take a break from like working so hard and then working under the table to make money to pay actually my dancers." So, that was like my main income. And what has happened is like, as the COVID came and attacked everybody, all my massage jobs just like... nada. You know, so I was put in that position of like, okay, whatever I make is to sustain myself within that period of time I was like, "Fuck, I really need to change my way of producing myself."
MIGUEL
Yeah, so that's one of the rare instances we'll hear today of useful government subsidy, although in Antonio's case it's health related, not arts funding related. Amar talks about how one of the challenges of seeking grant support is that her art making process and rhythm doesn't fall easily into the structures that are set up for funding.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
My work is really, it is really spirit driven. And as such, sometimes I get the call, so to speak, you know, I get the call, and then it's like, "Oh, I got to do this, I got to do this." And then I'll usually start to look for funding to support that. And sometimes I can wait, but sometimes I cannot, like I have to be in the process. The only thing is like, sometimes I get a call, but the call is not clear. So then I don't know, like, I'm going to be looking for money. But you know, they're going to ask all these things. You know, what, let's see your intended outcome. And I'm like, "Oh, no, they calling me but they ain't given me instructions yet." But we gonna do something. And here's some work samples of other things that I did in the dark. So maybe you'll trust me, and maybe you won't. Over time, I have to say, I've become more transparent around that. This is what I know. And there are a whole lot of things I don't know. And you know, I don't do that all the time. Because you know, then that limits your chances to get funding.
MIGUEL
Sometimes scale works in her favor, though.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
I teach at a university so there are times when I'm like, "Oh, I can just focus on finding money for just my artists because I'm only working with two or three people." And so I can find resources while we seek more funding to really hold the development of the work.
MIGUEL
It's a variation on the thought. But that kind of unknown space that Amara is talking about feels related to something that Cynthia brought up. She tells the story of coming to one of her mentors with a choreographic conceptual challenge she was facing in her work.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
I remember this person saying to me, you need to get back in the studio, and you need to just get in there daily and get your practice. And I thought about the absurdity of that as a young artist who didn't have the money to pay for studio space. Now it was one thing when I got that, that space grant, but on a daily basis, on the regular, many young artists don't have space. And so my conceptual framework had to be developed virtually-- I have that word now I didn't have it then. So as I'm walking down the street, I'm you know, I'm in Soho getting ready to go to rehearsal I'm doing you know, I'm on the subway, I had to operate in a virtual space all the time, the thought processes that had to take place outside of an actual space, because I didn't have the capital to actually work in a real space is significant.
MIGUEL
I really appreciated hearing that. When I moved to New York, I had a live work space in Bushwick, Brooklyn, for eight years, I never had to worry about booking rehearsal space. I could go into the studio pretty much whenever I wanted to and dance or just lay around and daydream. But then we were evicted in 2005. Bushwick basically became Soho, and I've never had regular studio space since then. A couple of years ago, I had a three week lockout residency, lockout just means that you can leave your stuff there and no one else besides you is using the space. And I use my time in that studio to work on two different performances, record choral music for one of my shows. And I even turned it into a fabrication studio for part of the time to make set pieces. The whole time I wondered what would my work have become or what would it look like? If I had a studio like that again here where I live in New York all year round?
JESSIE YOUNG
Hi, my name is Jessie Young. I'm calling from unseated land of the Lenape people, otherwise known as Brooklyn. I am supporting my work in making right now. 100% from my ???. I used to devise the way that I made income into what area of my life it went into. So Pilates teaching supports my rent, groceries and then any money I make from a dance gig goes back to a dance operation, with any kind of like project or lump sum that goes into an area that is put toward paying down foods and renting procedure space and project related stuff. Once all that money is in my bank account, I forget which goes to which. And then I ended up spending more money on the dance projects and then not having enough money for other things. So I'm working on getting more fluent in that. But currently, that's how I am supporting my work.
MIGUEL
So Jesse tries to keep her teaching income separate to pay for her life. Remember how Rosie also divided her income. And then she takes what she's paid from one dance gig and cycles it back into her own creative process and artists fees. It's kind of like that $25 Cynthia and I joked about passing around, I support you, and you support me, but neither one of us gets significant support from an outside source. And then Jessie talks about how it all gets muddled. I completely identify with that. When I'm experiencing gaps in support, I have to pay my manager from my teaching income. Which begs the question, what kind of administrative support are dance artists able to access for putting money together for their work?
ROSIE HERRERA
I have had support in different ways throughout my entire career. You know, I had an amazing agent named Pam Green, who sort of acts as a manager and agent for many years. And I loved working with her. And I've worked with Grant Walters here and there, had a company manager for a couple years, we have a great relationship, but she moved. So yeah, I've been doing kind of everything on my own for a while.
ANTONIO RAMOS
I did get some, even though it got kinda messed up, I got into a program with Tentacle...
MIGUEL
That's a dance service organization here in New York.
ANTONIO RAMOS
And he was great. But then it was hard to find the right administrator for me once again, because they're pretty conservative. And I couldn't find any support who really support my work. My queer, experimental shit. It was for almost two years. So I have to change administrators three times during those two years. So by the time somebody gets to know me, I gotta move on to the next one. And then they will quit. So I feel like I really, I mean, I tap into it. But I really think that the chance to go deeply into administrative work.
MIGUEL
Antonio also got support for a while through a creative capital program.
ANTONIO RAMOS
They show you how to be an entrepreneur, with the skills they have massive corporation to bring in into in an artist, but they couldn't answer my questions, because I'm coming from an individual who is with disability, like trying to survive and keeping their benefits at the same time that you do this corporate work that really doesn't work. I mean, at the end I ran out of options, and I was like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, a little bit lost with this.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
You know, it's just been me, I love writing. But it's, you know, writing tortures me just like choreography tortures me. I've chosen two areas that torture the hell out of me, and I just figure out how to manage them. I also think of this-- that labor, that labor of writing, that labor of finding the money as particularly mine.
MIGUEL
Cynthia then shares a moment when a colleague stepped in.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
In recent years, I've had another level of support at the university. There was one professor here who wanted me to apply for certain kinds of grants. Her name was Nancy Ableman. She's no longer with us. She pulled me in, and she wanted to hear about my projects. And I sat in an office with her and a woman named Maria Lombardo. And they listened to me talk about the work. And they asked a number of questions. And then I went away, and I wrote a proposal. And I sent it to them. They asked us another series of questions, and I rewrite it, and I'd send it back to them. And so these two women kept their eyes on-- this is the only time that that has ever happened to me. Prior to that it was really just me writing, but for Virago-Man Dem.
MIGUEL
Virago-Man Dem is a piece Cynthia premiered in 2017.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
I worked with these women. Even though I didn't get the grant that they were trying to help me get, it helped me fine tune my vision and the language in that proposal so that I ended up getting other things.
MIGUEL
That thing where someone is interested in listening to what you're doing and invested in helping you clarify the language of a project is critical. More often than not, we're stuck in that process by ourselves. Remember how Amara used the word exhausting to describe her general feelings about raising money. I asked her where that exhaustion comes in and how it affects her work.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
The exhaustion for me is in the writing. I am not confident as a writer and I write my grants and I've gotten better but I am still not very confident, and it takes me a very long time to write. And so that time that it takes for that is taking me away from the process. Because as a lot of us know, especially if you're writing your own grants, that's hours and hours, those are the hours that I would rather be in the studio. More recently, I've been able to afford to hire a grant writer, but I need to be in relationship with that person. And I'm not a control freak at all. But I just feel like I have a hard time articulating it. So how are you going to articulate something that I've had such a hard time articulating, we need to work together. A positive that I will say around it is that it has pushed me to be better and to keep working on that fear. But I also still don't want to be spending all my time writing.
MIGUEL
A few years ago, I actually made music for one of Antonio Ramos's pieces. And I remember seeing how hard he worked to put money together for that piece.
ANTONIO RAMOS
Oh my god, it was just insane, which is fucking insane. Because I would just work. Like I will force myself to work not only individually by myself, but like, work with different companies, and just work as much as I could within the rehearsal schedule. Some time I would work, I would do like 10 clients today or I mean, it depends what I was working with, and then manage somehow to be running all over town, either on my bike or public transportation. And it's-- I mean it gets to you because at the end, I felt like I couldn't really invest as much time and energy that I wanted it to be into the performance. But also I will make the money cash. And I would just keep pay cash to my performers.
MIGUEL
Yeah, he would like layout stacks of bills at the beginning of the week's rehearsals and handed out to all the performers.
ANTONIO RAMOS
The last couple of years after I was getting like... 2018... 2018, I was getting some grants, and then I was like, "Fuck." Like, I mean, it's great but at the same time, I have to like think about W-2 forms, and this and the other. And so it kind of all screwed up. Because I was getting into trouble with the IRS and losing my benefits that I actually lost that this year, unfortunately.
MIGUEL
Because when he started getting some grants from a tax perspective, he was now earning too much money to retain his disability benefits. Even though all that grant money, it wasn't all going to him.
ROSIE HERRERA
Exactly. And if I didn't sign the W-2 forms, I won't get the money, they won't get pay. It made me realize many things. I can't be working like I used to be anymore, that's for sure. It was just killing me and it's hard life and I felt like I have no life. I'd barely like, made it to see a performance, you don't have to make such an effort to put it in balance like what is this and you know, making enough money to pay myself and pay others or making enough money to just give it away practically. And you know, as much as I love my dancers, I also realized like how less care I was taking on myself and I was just getting sick a lot. And you know, when your immunocompromised then you just, you question that.
MIGUEL
So let's pause here for a moment and discuss what this money that we're seeking actually pays for. How much does it cost to make a dance? Well, let's start with how long it takes to make a dance. In my experience, it really depends on how an artist works. In the experimental scene, it's pretty common that you work in chunks of time stretched out over longer periods of time. So for example, most of my evening length pieces and evening length just means a piece it's like 45 minutes or longer. They take about 20 to 25 weeks of rehearsal spread out over the course of about 18 months. I don't work in ballet, but I know that those choreographic working periods are much shorter, like you might get three weeks to make a new piece. So we're going to do a thought experiment where we build a budget for a piece that takes 10 weeks to make. And for this budget, we're going to talk in ideal numbers mostly. And to do this, I'm going to bring in my manager, who's also the managing producer of this podcast, Michelle Fletcher. Hello.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay, let's do this. How many people are in your piece besides you?
MIGUEL
Let's say four folks.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
And you're in it too right?
MIGUEL
Yep, that seems like a good amount.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
So how often do you want to rehearse?
MIGUEL
Let's say the rehearsals are like five hours long because in an ideal world, you get to go to dance class in the morning or whatever. 10 to 12 and then you go to rehearsal like one to six.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
How many days a week?
MIGUEL
Five day work week, just like the rest of the world.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
How much are you going to pay people
MIGUEL
How much did I pay last time?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
25.
MIGUEL
Okay, well, we should be paying at least more than that.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
30 bucks an hour?
MIGUEL
Yeah.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Everyone's getting paid the same, including you?
MIGUEL
For this. Yeah, sure. Okay, that's that's that's enough, right? Like, okay, the time has come for us to... [audio clip plays saying "ADD IT UP!"]
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Five performers, five hours a day, five days a week. That means a day of rehearsal cost 750.
MIGUEL
Ok.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Which means one week of rehearsal cost 3750.
MIGUEL
Ok.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Which means that 10 weeks of rehearsal with five performers cost $37,500.
MIGUEL
I think we could do that.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Um we're not done. What about the lighting designer?
MIGUEL
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
A composer? Is there any kind of set?
MIGUEL
We're gonna like, activate sculptures or something?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Costumes?
MIGUEL
Sure.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Do you want to bring in someone as a dramaturge? Or an outside eye?
MIGUEL
What are you trying to say? Like, I have to get someone?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Is the composer working alone or with other musicians? Are they performing live?
MIGUEL
Live? You're funny.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay, I'm just putting down 5k for all that. The set designer probably needs to get materials to make a set with right?
MIGUEL
Sure, I don't know, it's like the same amount.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
5K.
MIGUEL
Okay. The lighting design is going to be super involved, though.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay. 3K. Are they running any equipment?
MIGUEL
I mean, they usually do, right?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay 2K.
MIGUEL
Sure.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
The costume designer needs some kind of budget. Unless everyone's naked.
MIGUEL
Well, that's definitely cheaper. I don't know. $1500?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay, but they're gonna need to get paid for their work.
MIGUEL
Okay, so like, I don't know, $1500 again?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Seems kind of low.
MIGUEL
They're gonna just have to, like get stuff from the thrift store. We're not gonna like ask them to sew...
MICHELLE FLETCHER
I thought you said, this was ideal.
MIGUEL
Okay, okay. $2,000.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Dramaturgs should be at rehearsals for pretty decent amount of time, right?
MIGUEL
Yes, sure. But like, I don't know. Like half...
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay, $3250. Oh, and me. Who's paying me for all of this?
MIGUEL
Well, I'm-- I mean, I'm paying you. But wait, how much do I pay you?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
33 an hour.
MIGUEL
That's pretty good.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
No comment.
MIGUEL
So like five hours a week for like three weeks of work. That's what you should be doing?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
We're applying for five grants. Do you realize how long that takes?
MIGUEL
Okay, okay, like 50 hours. So like, $1500? Wait, can I get paid for that?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
You have to get photos. That's at least 500.
MIGUEL
Okay, but did you hear my question about paying money...
MICHELLE FLETCHER
And you go to video tape it?
MIGUEL
Yeah. Okay. Wait, how much is that?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Well, are they editing it too?
MIGUEL
Yeah, I think so. Because my friend said he wasn't gonna do that for free anymore.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
Okay, so that's 2K.
MIGUEL
Wait, where are we gonna rehearse? We only have that one 2 week residency.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
I thought you said this was ideal.
MIGUEL
Yeah, ideal. Sure. But not like delusional.
MICHELLE FLETCHER
25 hours a week for eight weeks at $15 an hour.
MIGUEL
Woah, you found a place that's only $15 an hour?! Where are we rehearsing, a walk in closet?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
That's $3,000.
MIGUEL
Okay, so let's see where our budget is now?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
$65,750.
MIGUEL
That's not like that much. Right?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
The theater is asking if you have insurance. Do you have insurance?
MIGUEL
Ummm...
MICHELLE FLETCHER
The costume designer needs to order cars for when they come to rehearsal because they have to carry all that shit. And so do the set and lighting designer, they're gonna need a truck.
MIGUEL
A truck?
MICHELLE FLETCHER
And you're gonna pay for an interpreter. Right? You got all that text? Mr. interdisciplinary?
MIGUEL
Yeah. Okay, of course. I mean, how much is that? Wait, shouldn't the theater pay for that? [ADD IT UP audio plays] Thank you, Michelle. And that was us ACTING! ["It was just superb, truly." audio plays] Well, thank you Uta. ["I can tell you love the character." audio plays] Wow, I wouldn't go that far. So that was a crash course in what a budget might look like. There's a bunch of stuff we didn't even factor in. But you see how quickly the numbers add up. And I'll be super transparent and acknowledge that that $25 an hour number that I cited, that's real. That's the most I've ever been able to pay folks for hourly rehearsals, it is not enough. [Cardi B "I'm glad you brung it up. Because I've been dying to talk about it for fucking hot minute. First of all," audio plays] A $70,000 project budget may sound like a big number. But when you break it down, you realize that it's really not that much when you're talking about a 10 week rehearsal period and paying upwards of 10 folks. By way of comparison, did you know that the average cost for a 30 second national television commercial is $115,000. So yeah, $70,000, it's still not enough to pay performers what they should be getting paid as experts in their field. But I'm gonna guess that there are some dance artists and performance makers out there who are listening to this episode, who are now thinking, "Hey, I'm never gonna get $70,000 together for a project." And statistically, sadly, you're probably right, especially given that the highest project grant amount that I know of that you can apply to is $50,000. And that organization only accepts applications for dance based projects every few years. And you can only get it once.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
I don't ever feel like I've arrived. I know how this funding world works. And you can like receive grants for a period of time and then crickets. And I watch people who I love and admire, receive all the grants and fellowships I've received and then be in a place of like, I can't get funding. So I don't take that for granted. Tides can turn so I just never want to, you know, assume anything.
MIGUEL
I asked Amara, if when she did get support that she applied for, did it actually cover the cost of the project?
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
I think the complicated nature of that question is the association afforded me other grants that then did. I don't know that I've had, I think with the exception of one grant that I got last year through the Kenneth Rainin Foundation, that grant really did cover a lot, but mostly... I'm seeking a lot of different sources. And the thing that we have to be reminded of is, with the exception of a few grants, most of them are asking you in the process "Who else are you seeking funding from? Because you're not trying to like have us pay for everything." That's basically what they saying they're like, and what percentage of this grant is supposed to cover your project? Oh, okay, wait, let's be real about that, you know, so no.[laughs] I mean, by and large, not because they don't actually seem to want that.
MIGUEL
This idea of the buy in, the idea that one grant will leverage support to get you more grants. It's a venture capitalist model, really, although very little dance funding gets at all close to what VC numbers look like. When you put a budget together for an application, you write down what money you've secured, that you know you're going to get and what money you're hoping to get, which includes the money from the funder that that application is going to. And like Amara said, it's rare that any one funder allows you to say that their grant will go to pay for the whole project. So you say, yeah, hey, I'm applying for all these other grants. And all of these theaters are interested in presenting my work, which P.S. may or may not be true, but more to the point, you have no idea if you're actually going to get any of those other grants. So it's this very strange space of concocting fictions for a fantastically ideal future to impress the folks who themselves are the very arbiters of that future.
TANYA MARQUARDT
Hey, my name is Tanya Marquardt, I go by they/them pronouns, I am calling from Lenapehoking but I also work on Coast Salish land, colloquially known as Brooklyn, New York, and Vancouver, British Columbia. Last year, I was a building manager because I didn't qualify for unemployment. So I took care of a building. And that's how I funded my work. I usually fund it through teaching here in Lenapehoking and I am super grateful that as a Canadian, I've mostly funded by work through grants through Canada. And I've gotten a couple of grants here, but actually very few and far between. For a long time I was a grant writer in like different educational arts institutions. Aside from my work that way, and in the past, I've also funded my work by slinging coffee, doing nude modeling, how to BDSM stuff. Yeah, I wish we all had universal income or something like that, that we could all just like, do that and be able to pay for our teeth getting cleaned? Yeah, I really do wish that.
MIGUEL
Antonio has for years now been applying for pretty much everything out there without much success. I ran through a list of national funding possibilities. Did you apply for MAP?
ANTONIO RAMOS
Nada.
MIGUEL
Did you apply for National Dance Project?
ANTONIO RAMOS
I have applied for that.
MIGUEL
Did you apply to the National Association of Latino Arts and Culture?
ANTONIO RAMOS
Nada. They're really, really, really conservative.
MIGUEL
How about Creative Capital?
ANTONIO RAMOS
Uh huh, nada as well.
MIGUEL
How about the National Endowment for the Arts.
ANTONIO RAMOS
Yes, I have. But they're like weird about like, cause I don't have anybody produce me somewhere. Is that the one?
MIGUEL
Yeah, you have to have support.
ANTONIO RAMOS
Yeah.
MIGUEL
Okay. What about a fellowship, the Guggenheim Fellowship?
ANTONIO RAMOS
I have applied, nada.
MIGUEL
What about one of those nomination based awards like the Alpert Award? Yep. That Herb Alpert? [trumpet audio plays] Has he been nominated for that?
ANTONIO RAMOS
Six or seven times?
MIGUEL
No luck there either. Then we talked about more local funding possibilities. How about the New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowship.
ANTONIO RAMOS
Nada.
MIGUEL
New York State Council for the Arts?
ANTONIO RAMOS
I think probably next time I got something like really super small.
MIGUEL
He also got some support from the Brooklyn Council on the Arts.
ANTONIO RAMOS
It's like $3,000.
MIGUEL
Once we went through that list, we took a moment.
ANTONIO RAMOS
You know, I'd be like when you look at the picture in general, I feel like I should be quitting a long time ago. I should have because it's like so... it's frustrating, just being in that field for so long. I keep reapplying and feeling like you really not... there's not an audience or there's not conservative people who'd actually be a little more open to the kind of work I do.
MIGUEL
Yeah, and that's a lot of unpaid time applying for grants. I'll also add that on paper, those different granting sources, if you do get them are allegedly supposed to go to different aspects of your artistic life. Income source division yet again! There are project grants that are supposed to be just for your projects. There are fellowships which are sometimes research focused or like awards, they could just provide money for you to live for a while. For example, Amara, Cynthia and Rosie have all been recipients of the $50,000 United States Artist Fellowship. Theoretically, it's not meant to be used for a project. But...
ROSIE HERRERA
You know, a second ago, you mentioned the United States Artists Award. And I have to tell you, every time somebody brings that up, I'm like, I should have bought a house.
MIGUEL
But it's not enough money to buy a house.
ROSIE HERRERA
I know. And I live in Miami, it's like, there's not-- it's not enough money to buy a freaking apartment. But I just I, you know, as I get older, and like, rents just increase and increase and increase and increase, and I keep getting pushed out of every single neighborhood. I just like, really, I couldn't, that was the most amount of money I've ever gotten. And, you know, like, I'm never getting that much money again, I should have, you know... but that money was spread out over many years to help support a variety of works that were my heart.
MIGUEL
I asked the artists, how they manage their expectations, once they apply for a grant, and how they deal with rejection.
ROSIE HERRERA
Kind of such a fucked up thing to say, but the truth is, I just never expect it. Just assume that it's not gonna happen. And not because I'm like, so... been rejected so many times. I'm just so used to working outside of that grant system that I'm like-- I'm making or dreaming in a different way.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
To this day, I never anticipate that I'm going to get something and maybe being a young dancer and auditioning teaches you not to get overconfident. Because of the amount of rejection that you know, dancers get early on in their careers, or, you know, ongoing in their careers. There's never an expectation, there's a... there's, of course, the hope that I will get it because I am also not a prolific artist, I'm not one of those people who does a new work every year. That's not how my head works or my life works. So when I have the inspiration, and feel strongly about doing something, then I'm hoping that that connects with whatever panels are operating at the time, because that's the other reality of the... depending on the panel, you may or may not be the selected artists. So there's never... I never expect. The other thing is I've always thought of myself, and I said this, to the US Artists people, I always thought of myself as like a B artist, right. So like, there are the A listers in film. And then the B listers, that... and the C listers and all that. And I always thought of myself as you know, B or even C level artist and I was okay. I reconciled myself with like, I'm not going to be one of those people. And they are, you know, they absolutely deserve where they are. But I'm going to just keep toiling away at what I do. There's an audience that loves my work, and I'm happy to see them, they seem to be happy to see me when I do something. And I'm fine with that. It works in my life in a fine way. The other part of that was that I also elected not to pursue a 501C3 status. I had conversations with a number of people about it, because there are certain funding opportunities for folks who choose to do that, that the others don't have. As an independent artist, you cannot apply for some things if you don't have that status. But I chose to do that because I did not want to be a business, an official business. I didn't want to have a board that I had to answer to. I didn't want to have workman's compensation that I had to figure out how to pay for even when we're not working. I-- there are all these complications that I didn't want to have so that when I'm not like making a work, I could just let myself rest and recover and regenerate and think toward the future work.
MIGUEL
When they don't get stuff, do they have any idea why?
ROSIE HERRERA
I have no idea. I have no idea ever, ever. I asked for feedback. And I get really bad feedback usually. Which is like wonderful application. Great work samples.
MIGUEL
But you don't get the money.
ROSIE HERRERA
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming to my party.
MIGUEL
Yeah, "It was a great project. Sorry, you didn't get the money."
ROSIE HERRERA
Yeah. Looking for blondes this year. Thank you.
MIGUEL
Antonio suspects that it has to do with the recurrence of nudity in his work.
ANTONIO RAMOS
There's so afraid of nudity, they're afraid of people being on stage. And it's huge. It's like a huge thing of my work. I mean, and within that I think the whole body positive is a little bit funky because when they wanted to see somebody new, they want to see specific people who are new, and I'm not drawn by that I'm drawn more than that the shapes and forms can be so fucking beautiful on stage.
MIGUEL
But he's guessing though, right? I mean, he's not sure. There have been times when I've been rejected that I've been obsessed with wanting to know why.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
I don't know, I think that's a fool's errand. Because unless they tell you, one will never know. And even when they do tell you, generally the field is so competitive that at a certain level, if you have arrived at a certain level in the application process, it becomes an effort by the panel to find the flaws so that they can eliminate, as opposed to what will elevate this proposal. And so, you know, well, she didn't talk about, you know, some random something. And so that would be the thing that would knock me out, as opposed to someone else up here. Or, you know, she keeps, she doesn't, she keeps spelling that word wrong, [laughs] I don't know, I'm making that shit up. But there's some reason... they find some reason to eliminate because they have to, and so that, I don't know that it would be helpful for me to then, you know, take that to heart to consider for the next time I apply. I mean, the most important thing for me, is to be as true to my voice, and to my process, and to my needs as possible. And if that doesn't align with the institutional mission, then I just have to live with it. And I know that is spoken from a place of that can be considered a place of privilege, because I've gotten a certain number of awards, I have a day job, I can, you know, I'm not dependent on that money for my life.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
I'll feel disappointed like anybody like, "Oh, damn, you know, oh, we could really use that money." But I kind of am like, oh, there's, there's a reason that I don't know, there's a reason that this... that I'm not getting this, other than that only so many people can get grants. And now there been a couple of times when I was really like, "Oh, I thought this was right up the alley." And there was a project I did, I think it was like, almost 10 years ago. And it had all this community engaged work that we were doing in conjunction with developing this work I did around food, and I was working with a theater in San Francisco, and we applied to a foundation that was looking to fund the thing that we were going to do, you know, we're like, "Oh, my God." This is-- and this grant will just like, really cover a large part of what we're trying to do. And we didn't get it. And we were like, what? And so the executive director at the time was helping me write it, you know, said, I'm going to, I'm going to go talk to them. And she talked to them, they were like, "Oh, we didn't believe you were going to do all that." And we actually did, we actually did-- we actually did more. I don't think they said it was too good to be true or something. But basically along the lines of like, "Oh, yeah, we didn't think that that was gonna... you were going to be able to do that."
MIGUEL
Yeah, that story really gets to me. The worst feedback I ever got from a grant rejection was, "The panel wasn't sure how you would realize the project." I screamed, because literally my one and only job description in life is that I realized projects, it feels like we get mixed messages from funders. On the one hand, they say dream big, knowing that, in the end, we'll probably have to shrink our ambitions down. But Amara says, don't despair.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
But we need to keep doing that regardless like, you know what I mean? Like, otherwise, what we'll do is say, "Oh, you don't really mean it. So I'm going to keep fitting in your box." I'm all about getting out of the binary. It's not either this or that, we need to be able to withstand or endure what it means to be in the instability of, there might be occasions when I know that if I just tweak this language, even if I'm not 100% around, I don't agree with needing to do this, but it's more about you know, pick your battles, and also that we must dream big. Otherwise, that feeling of you know, constant, you're applying for things and not getting them and you're being told to dream big, and then you do and then they you know, turn you down. And this happens multiple times. If we don't find another way to like, hold true to our work. Like we can't shift this. You know what I'm saying? Like we-- we're not going to shift this by continuing to bend and lean. Yeah, we'll have to do that sometimes. But that has to be the exception and not the rule. And we have to insist on how this funding world works. We have to insist on that it's not humane or equitable, and to keep pushing them to do differently.
MIGUEL
[Miguel's voice, reading off another entry with a phone audio filter] My name is Eric Larsen. I'm a performance maker living in Minneapolis. And I wonder if you're aware of Minnesota's arts funding situation. It's pretty fascinating. Basically, we get hella funding in part because Sheila Smith at Minnesota Citizens for the Arts, lobbied with enviro folks to pass a combined bill that supports ecological conservation and the arts. I run a little unincorporated, non nonprofit company I created to support my work. And with the state arts board and regional arts board grants, I expect to receive $55,000 in public funding in 2022. I got $35,000 this year, but they've increased grant amounts this next year due to COVID. I'm 27. I feel like people outside the state and inside, to be honest, don't realize how vastly different this is from the rest of the country. [Ending beep] Cats out of the bag now, Eric, I looked up that Sheila Smith, you talked about and, whoa, yes, now we are all going to move to Minnesota. I asked Cynthia, given her time in the field, if she'd noticed a change in the population of who is getting funding now.
CYNTHIA OLIVER
I see way more faces of color than I've ever seen before. And you know, there's that part of me that is very happy about that, because that those faces deserve to be there. There is the part of me that is concerned that that is a trend, which, you know, depending on the political, social, historical next moment, is very tenuous. I don't want folks to think of it as the, kind of, affirmative action of funding, and that these people only got it because of this political moment that we're in, because these people deserve to have been there all along. And think of it instead as reparative. So yeah, I, you know, I have seen difference. I have a ridiculous story. I was on a panel a couple of years ago, a Dance Studies Association panel, and a young man stood up and was complaining at the end, we were-- there were a bunch of us there talking about Masters Programs in Choreography Dance across the country. And he stood up and was asking like, well, what is the, what are these programs going to help young choreographers to do because you know, now he'd noticed that MAP doesn't fund white people anymore. And so he was... and he was complaining. And I just had had enough. And I said, I just need you to understand that the way that you're feeling right now, people of color have been feeling for many, many years with regard to funding across the country. So I'm sorry that you feel aggravated about it. But there is a balance that's being tipped that is very necessary. So you might be without some funding for a minute. But there have been many, many artists who have been without funding for a very long time for the imbalance that happened in the other direction.
MIGUEL
I asked Amara if she thought that the efforts funders are making towards Diversity, Equity and Inclusion are sincere. And my apologies, this audio is a little fuzzy at times.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
I wouldn't stand in judgment of somebody's sincerity, but more like, do you have the endurance necessary for what it's going to take, because that kind of deep cultural shift that has to happen is huge and so uncomfortable. Like, okay, well, so on our list to do is diversity, equity inclusion, workshop check, okay. And it's not going to be solved with a one time workshop. We know this, but I don't think that they understand the upheaval that has to happen. And coupled with that is that it's not just about how you're going to have to unpack your own internalized stuff, but also be willing to be in the unknown. And that's not how capitalism operates at all. Like they're, like, be innovative, but know what you're going to do. [Miguel laughs] What the fuck? Like, that's some bullshit. That's the thing that you're talking about around the dream big, but do something that I can recognize, right? No, we have to be willing to be in the dark around this. The creation of a society that's inequitable, it didn't start, you know, we can look back 400 years to the founding fathers of this country. But this has been a larger project, even before of like creating these systems of inequity, and how many hundreds and thousands maybe years in Europe that this was happening. How... we not going to do that in a diversity, equity and inclusion workshop? You know what I mean? Like we have to think like that. It's like, oh, no, this is, uh, this has been a thousands of years project, you know, that I believe started with the advent of patriarchy. So you got to be in it for the long haul, you got to be willing to, okay, we're going to make a cultural shift in this foundation that maybe none of us lives to see when it truly is realized, but that we're committed nonetheless. And that's huge cultural shift.
MIGUEL
And finally, at the end of each of my conversations with the artists, Rosie, Cynthia Amara, and Antonio, I asked them what they wished were different, what sort of changes they would like to see in terms of funding?
ROSIE HERRERA
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a way to support an artist's life versus going piece by piece, it's like, you know, constantly like, like on a hamster wheel trying to prove that you are still relevant, or that you have something to say when that has been like, it's clear. Miami has a wonderful, wonderful training programs, we produce phenomenal artists, like I just like the work here better than everybody else. Looks like the work being made here, the dancing that's happening here is so amazing. But we don't necessarily have the best track record for keeping artists here. And when I look over time, you know, who stays and who doesn't stay, and what's the prices that they pay, and who has access to continue to dance full time or continue to make work full time. It's very challenging, and those statistics are pretty freakin bleak. You know, so a lot of artists leave more sad than that a lot of a lot of artists struggle with having families, and the choices that have to be made. When you have a family, you have to support a family and what that does to your career as a dancer, so I think to myself, like, man, wouldn't it be cool if those artists that are making amazing work, and that are checking all the lists, you know, getting the national recognition, you know, doing the work with the community, you know, diverse, beautiful ensembles of people working for them, creating jobs, had support to stay. What if it was like the bigger organizations that was like, here's a fund that you can apply to, to buy a freaking house, here's a fund that you can apply to support the work of touring mothers so that artists can stay, artists that are amazing artists can live. And I'm not even saying like live well, I'm just saying just like live in this place, and still be able to make work. And this is coming from the most privileged, probably choreographer in Miami, who's probably getting the most support and the most funding and the most national recognition. And I still am struggling to make my life and still, you know, obviously have that-- I don't know if you've had this, like every six months you're like, "Will I ever have a family? Could I ever have a home? You know, is the price of this life a little too high?"
CYNTHIA OLIVER
One of the things for me has been that I feel like there was a flash moment when a number of the powers that be realized that it wasn't that I was failing at imitating white artists' aesthetics, it was that I actually had another set of values and aesthetics at play. And I think that moment was key. And so if that realization happened much sooner in the funding community, perhaps there would be a different way of thinking about what people are doing, as opposed to presuming it from a deficit, a place of deficit, oh, these artists, they're not as good creatively or aesthetically, as opposed to what are the aesthetics that they're operating from.
AMARA TABOR-SMITH
There's enough money for all of us to get what we need. There's enough, it's just we're just not getting it. There's enough money for everybody to get what they need, everybody. And so a friend and curator and art person, Ashara Ekundayo, she says artists are first responders. And I think that artists can perform a kind of first response in terms of, you know, responding artistically, to whatever's going on. If we're the forward thinkers, if we're the, you know, if we, we are part of the visionary team of people that are like imagining what it could be, then let us you know, let like... listen to us. Listen, and believe us when we say, you know, believe that this work, believe that all of our work is important. Believe that art is really, you know, is, is... is necessary. We have never been without art. So nobody knows, like, "Oh, could you live without art?" You've never had to, you've never had to! Value artists and pay us, pay all of us. Even like, the art that you don't like, pay those artists. Because you know, what we like is it's subjective, it's, it's so individual, and there should be room for all of it.
ANTONIO RAMOS
We should all get something out of the pot, my fantasy is that we can all receive a portion enough to survive in this, especially in times like this.
MIGUEL
In the last few years, Antonio has been traveling to Peru to study plant medicine at a spiritual center run by an indigenous family.
ANTONIO RAMOS
Like I mean, at the end, we're all fucking connected and, and we forget about this. And I feel like this is one of the things like that I have learned from the indigenous people and from their beliefs, it's like, if you go into a forest, the forest is connected with like, all of the trees that are there, the roots, and the the microorganisms are all connected to themselves. And when something happened to one of them, one of them is either dying, or have a disease or have anything, they actually bring nutrients to that tree, and they support the life of that particular tree. And also, they send information to over the forest like to tell them like, "Yo, this tree is suffering from this, let's help them but also let's keep them alive." And I just feel like we kind of have forgotten about that within all communities. Like it doesn't matter, gender, and race and color and shapes. Like I feel like we all deserve to be supported by each other. And we forgot that.
MIGUEL
We heard so many different circumstances today, it was dizzying, where so many people tried to navigate the same system, which itself is an array of organizations with different timelines, different applications, different expectations that often change from one year to the next. There's not a lot of space for the idiosyncrasies of how artists work. So there's a kind of rigidity to it. But at the same time, it's also a kind of free for all, a wild west survival of the fittest scenario where we're treated as if we're coming in with equal footing. But we're coming from very different places. There's no centralized anything to look to for guidance, and there's no reasonably reliable support. As artists, our lives are held together in such uneven, unstable and unpredictable ways. But the organizations we appeal to want us to demonstrate sustainability, viability, they want to see through your operating budgets. They're asking for coherence. But we're having pretty unholistic experiences of being in a field, which is not one. We invoke the term community so much, artists say it funders say it, presenters say it, there's a romance attached to it. But we're not a community. Everybody knows that. We're groups of communities. And within that there are funded artists and unfunded artists. Personally, I hate when the word community is conjured to celebrate resilience. Because to me, it really feels like a smokescreen for saying, "Well, we really don't see this funding situation changing and those of us holding the purse strings, we definitely aren't going to change." But isn't the dance community inspiring? It is, I won't deny it. I sit in awe and in respect for the voices we heard from today. And I know that beyond them, there are many, many more. I raise my water bottle to you, to every dance artist who has managed a ridiculous schedule to make it work. Who's woken up early to teach that class or who stayed up late to finish cleaning tables at the restaurant, who's gotten on the train carrying five bags of overly heavy shit to bring to rehearsal that you're going to have to carry back home the same day, who stayed up on the weekends to finish yet another grant, who's done that while holding a baby in their arms, who's gotten to the theater and realized it's not accessible, they lied, who gets lost imagining ideas for their next piece while walking down the street to work, who hears the call and creates community around it. Who massages 10 clients in a day to give their dancers cash on Monday morning, who stays while they watch others leave. I fucking love you. But this shit's hard. I don't know what's going to turn it around, exactly, but I know that this isn't just as simple as readjusting your sense of self worth. That can be part of it. Sure. But we're also talking about a system of inequity, entrenched within an even larger system of inequity. So what's it going to take, I wonder, like everything else inside of the capitalist reality we're living in, it feels like there just aren't enough hours in the day to imagine coming together as this conglomeration of communities to change things. But as I've learned again, and again, whenever I'm grousing about something, there's usually a bunch of people who actually are already doing something about it and probably have been for a while. I'm not the first person to think about this stuff. So in episodes coming down the pike, we'll be hearing from people who are changing the field, and you'll find out how you can support them, so that we can move forward collectively toward necessary change. In our next episode, we'll be talking to funders to hear how they feel about some of the problems we heard about today. The challenges that they face, and how they're navigating this global reckoning around capitalism and the economic disparity it has wrought. Be sure to tune in because it should be a super fun, listen. [Laughing noise plays] But once again, it'll be a minute before we get to that episode. Okay, not a minute, more like a month. Yeah, I know, a month is a long time to wait. But hey, I'm in grad school and I got shows and I got to keep up with my homework and it's a lot. In the meantime, feel free to go back and listen to all the episodes and parse out these subliminal messages.
Are You For Sale? is supported by the National Performance Network’s Storytelling fund, Brown University Arts Initiative, Dance NYC’s Dance Advancement Fund and Creating New Futures and thank you for all that support. This episode was recorded and produced on Lenape land in the area currently referred to as Brooklyn.
Our managing producer is Michelle Fletcher. Thanks again for your cameo, Michelle. Our production assistants are Jake Cedar, Camryn Stafford and Kirsten Pardo. And a million thanks to Amara Tabor-Smith, Antonio Ramos, Cynthia Oliver and Rosie Herrera for speaking with me and thank you to Shannon Stewart, Jessie Young, Tanya Marquardt, Kate Watson Wallace, Eric Larsen and Emily Mast.
I really appreciated your contributions and I'm sorry, I couldn't include everyone who called or wrote in. And I hope that everybody listening gets to see and support all of these artists' work. I record the interviews and I produce the podcast, write most of the script with invaluable help and additions from Michelle Fletcher. I made the theme song plus any music you heard that wasn't made by somebody else. The title of this podcast comes from a line in Morgan Parker's poem, Welcome to the Jungle.
You can learn more about who you heard from today and read a transcript of the episode at our website, areyouforsalepodcast.com where you can also donate to support the continuation of the podcast. We would really appreciate it. Please subscribe to this podcast on whatever platform you got to us from, and follow us on Instagram at @areyouforsalepodcast and if you feel inspired to send us a message at areyouforsalepodcast@gmail.com .
It could just be love or suggestions, gossip, the email of your close close friend who wants to give me a book deal or assign me to their label or underwrite the production costs of this podcast through their family foundation that only funds podcasts about arts funding, greenlight my dramedy for Netflix, Hulu, HBO, Max, Apple TV, Amazon, ["No!"] Paramount, Disney Plus me. Why not? Think of me as a new Avenger? ["Wakanda Forever!" clip from Black Panther plays] Until next time, stay weird. Make fucking art you guys. Stay blessed. Not stressed. Adios everyone.
MIGUEL
What do you feel about government funding–
ROSIE HERRERA
It doesn't exist! [Laughs] What are you talking about? How do I feel? [Giggles] Where? What are you talking about? Tell me, tell me who they are.